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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 111 stop yer whining
02-04-2010, 04:15 PM
the klingons DO have cloaks, the federation can't because of that treaty, algernon i think. If you keep diying in pvp, change tactics, i have no problems with my group because we stay in a federation ball of ships. All together so that the klingons can't pick us off one by one. They need to cloak because let's face it, those first couple of klingon ships have like tin foil for armor. I have an alternate proposal. A third faction neither K nor F. Possibly Maquis, or displaced mirror universe people, that can use any ship (trained) and any tech (also trained) there would of course have to be some disadvantages to this faction, such as less support infrastructure
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 112
02-04-2010, 06:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElmerJr View Post
The BoP strength, which the majority of the players in the KDF fly, is all psychological. Yes, it is fast and can turn on a dime, but it is an eggshell with a cannon, even more so than the Fed tier 2 escort. An MES assisted alpha strike by Feds would rip through BoPs and it would not matter about the team organization of the KDF side which would loose two or three birds within the first 10 seconds. That is the point, to do to the KDF what is being perceived from the other side but still have the equipment bonus that the Feds enjoy so they can 'PWN them damn Klingons' and get their e-bragging rights with the t-shirt. It is PRIDE, not game mechanics or balance which is calling for the broken MES to be returned. Do not lump the QQ Klingons with those opposed to MES because of imbalance or assume that if they do oppose MES it is because of QQ.
I just want to comment on this in relation to hulls and DPS ability. Currently, the ships are balanced as such:

Federation

- Poor manueverability
- Standard DPS
- Standard hull
- Standard shields
- No cloak

Klingon

- High manueverability
- High DPS
- Low hull
- Low shields
- Cloak

Now, here is an example of why having lower hull and shield health, for you, is not a disadvantage at all. As you can see you can out DPS us, and we can outlast you. This balances out. While our hull and shields strengths are higher, you can dish out the DPS (and stay in line of sight to do so) far easier than we can. This means any extra HP anywhere on the ship is fairly meaningless unless our ships can dish out similar DPS. But, because we do less DPS your lesser ships are actually taking relatively the same kind of damage as ours are compared to their totals. Especially since rotating shields out isn't as easy for the Federation as it is for the Klingon counterparts.

This means both sides have related hull and DPS qualities - the major determining factor of who wins and loses really comes down to one stat - maneuverability. Maneuverability determines one's tanking ability in part, their firing arcs and DPS in part, as well as their ability to escape harm. There is also one more thing that Klingons have - the ability to conceal themselves. This means, that while you don't have the same health, you're team as a whole spends less time out in the open. This adds more to your survivability alongside your maneuverability, for which the Federation side cannot account for.

BOff abilities are comparable on both sides save for the BoP, which has free seating in that regard. This comparison is already leaning more toward the Klingon side. But this is without considering individual and team skill. This list, however, shows Klingons to have more global tools available to them.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 113
02-04-2010, 06:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emn1ty View Post
I just want to comment on this in relation to hulls and DPS ability. Currently, the ships are balanced as such:

Federation

- Poor manueverability
- Standard DPS
- Standard hull
- Standard shields
- No cloak

Klingon

- High manueverability
- High DPS
- Low hull
- Low shields
- Cloak

Now, here is an example of why having lower hull and shield health, for you, is not a disadvantage at all. As you can see you can out DPS us, and we can outlast you. This balances out. While our hull and shields strengths are higher, you can dish out the DPS (and stay in line of sight to do so) far easier than we can. This means any extra HP anywhere on the ship is fairly meaningless unless our ships can dish out similar DPS. But, because we do less DPS your lesser ships are actually taking relatively the same kind of damage as ours are compared to their totals. Especially since rotating shields out isn't as easy for the Federation as it is for the Klingon counterparts.

This means both sides have related hull and DPS qualities - the major determining factor of who wins and loses really comes down to one stat - maneuverability. Maneuverability determines one's tanking ability in part, their firing arcs and DPS in part, as well as their ability to escape harm. There is also one more thing that Klingons have - the ability to conceal themselves. This means, that while you don't have the same health, you're team as a whole spends less time out in the open. This adds more to your survivability alongside your maneuverability, for which the Federation side cannot account for.

BOff abilities are comparable on both sides save for the BoP, which has free seating in that regard. This comparison is already leaning more toward the Klingon side. But this is without considering individual and team skill. This list, however, shows Klingons to have more global tools available to them.
high DPS? We have the same weapons that the Feds do. Without the invincible Scoence Vessel as "support"

You also downplay the lack of stations on our ship.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 114
02-04-2010, 06:55 PM
You have more forward facing weapons for cannons, hence higher DPS. Especially in comparison to beam arrays which are nowhere near the same DPS as cannons. Fed ships are usually forced into beam arrays due to the fact they can't manuever fast enough in PvP to really consider cannons (at least everything but an escort). So yes, in the bigger picture, Klings do more DPS. Add in tactical consoles and multiple tactical BOff's in BoP's and you get WAY more DPS output than any Federation escort at T1/T2.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 115
02-04-2010, 06:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emn1ty View Post
You have more forward facing weapons for cannons, hence higher DPS. Especially in comparison to beam arrays which are nowhere near the same DPS as cannons. Fed ships are usually forced into beam arrays due to the fact they can't manuever fast enough in PvP to really consider cannons (at least everything but an escort). So yes, in the bigger picture, Klings do more DPS. Add in tactical consoles and multiple tactical BOff's in BoP's and you get WAY more DPS output than any Federation escort at T1/T2.
What a surprise another Federation player basing the game on t1 and t2. So in the end game when our DPS is exactly the same as yours (same foward facing slots.) and we have less BO slots what will your excuse be?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 116
02-04-2010, 07:01 PM
That later teired ships be balanced accordingly? What do you want me to say? This is in general here. Lower teirs are the most basic of PvP mechanics and therefore the most pure. Later tiers should be balanced after lower teirs because any balances made at the lowest tier should directly translate to higher ones.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 117
02-04-2010, 07:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emn1ty View Post
That later teired ships be balanced accordingly? What do you want me to say? This is in general here. Lower teirs are the most basic of PvP mechanics and therefore the most pure. Later tiers should be balanced after lower teirs because any balances made at the lowest tier should directly translate to higher ones.
No the early tiers of all MMos are poorly balanced. Because the game is balanced towards end game not the other way around.

I have not heard of a single MMO that was balanced in the early tiers. In fact I know of several where the opposite is true.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 118
02-04-2010, 07:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedisp View Post
No the early tiers of all MMos are poorly balanced. Because the game is balanced towards end game not the other way around.

I have not heard of a single MMO that was balanced in the early tiers. In fact I know of several where the opposite is true.
age of conan ballanced the earlier tiers in the beginning and completely screwed over the ranger as a class.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 119
02-04-2010, 07:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by faithborn
age of conan ballanced the earlier tiers in the beginning and completely screwed over the ranger as a class.
....Thanks for proving my point I guess.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 120
02-04-2010, 07:40 PM
It doesn't prove anything. Early tiers are bare. Balance those tiers, and then balance Tier 2 abilities accordingly on top of previous balances. If a balance on weaponry is effecting later tiers, add properties to those ships that counter said issue (don't change the weapon) for example.

Anyone have any comment about my other points? Do they not make sense?
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