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Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,019
# 21
12-30-2013, 05:22 PM
Once Cruiser Commands became a thing.. I knew this thread was going to show up one day..


After a fair bit of consideration about mechanics and role in Star Trek itself, my proposal would be to remove subsystem targetting from Science Vessels(they really need something more suited to proper science stuff) and give escorts the ability to "focus" their attacks at a subsystem until changed/de-activated.

Have it work like cruiser or carrier commands where you have a 'focus tray' and while you have one active a target will have reduced performance in that subsystem as long as the corresponding escort is firing at it. (The bridge officer abilities will still be useful for temporarily weakening a subsystem even further and their ability to disable a subsystem outright - they might even be more attractive options with Focus mechanics.)


As a Mockup of sorts:

Targeting Focus: Weapons
-Target loses 10 power in Weapons while being fired upon.(?)
-Target deals 10% less weapon damage while being fired upon.

Targeting Focus: Shields
-Target loses 10 power in Shields while being fired upon.(?)
-Target regenerates shields 10% slower and heals shields 10% less while being fired upon.

Targeting Focus: Engines
-Target loses 10 power in Engines while being fired upon.(?)
-Target moves and turns 10% slower while being fired upon.

Targeting Focus: Auxiliary Systems
-Target loses 10 power in Auxiliary while being fired upon.(?)
-Target recharges abilities 5-10% slower while being fired upon.

Last edited by szerontzur; 12-30-2013 at 05:49 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,597
# 22
12-30-2013, 05:57 PM
^Great, let's make science vessels even more ineffective than they already are.

Escorts don't need a new mechanic.
Vadm. Kanril Eleya, U.S.S. Andraste, Strike Team Alpha

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Captain
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,019
# 23
12-30-2013, 06:09 PM
Oh, I certainly think Science Ships need some love, and they're probably going to get something later next year by the sounds of things. (Last I heard it was a secondary deflector, but I still adamantly want launch-able science probes that create 'environmental hazards' that can buff/debuff hit rate, crit rate, periodically wipe target locks, etc.)

I don't think Escorts need anything right now either, but down the road they'll likely need something when they fall behind impending feature-creep.
Ensign
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 5
# 24
12-30-2013, 06:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by szerontzur View Post
Once Cruiser Commands became a thing.. I knew this thread was going to show up one day..


After a fair bit of consideration about mechanics and role in Star Trek itself, my proposal would be to remove subsystem targetting from Science Vessels(they really need something more suited to proper science stuff) and give escorts the ability to "focus" their attacks at a subsystem until changed/de-activated.

Have it work like cruiser or carrier commands where you have a 'focus tray' and while you have one active a target will have reduced performance in that subsystem as long as the corresponding escort is firing at it. (The bridge officer abilities will still be useful for temporarily weakening a subsystem even further and their ability to disable a subsystem outright - they might even be more attractive options with Focus mechanics.)


As a Mockup of sorts:

Targeting Focus: Weapons
-Target loses 10 power in Weapons while being fired upon.(?)
-Target deals 10% less weapon damage while being fired upon.

Targeting Focus: Shields
-Target loses 10 power in Shields while being fired upon.(?)
-Target regenerates shields 10% slower and heals shields 10% less while being fired upon.

Targeting Focus: Engines
-Target loses 10 power in Engines while being fired upon.(?)
-Target moves and turns 10% slower while being fired upon.

Targeting Focus: Auxiliary Systems
-Target loses 10 power in Auxiliary while being fired upon.(?)
-Target recharges abilities 5-10% slower while being fired upon.
this is actually one of the few good ideas i've seen on this subject (and i've seen alot so far...)
this doesnt make escorts any more overpowered then they already are, as that slight drop in shield power isnt drastic, and regen drain only stops one or two builds anyway. besides, i've always seen science as the counter to escorts, and no matter which of these (except maybe aux for obvious reasons) you choose, a good science wouldnt be effected. since a science shouldnt be focusing on engines, they're shields are naturally really tough, and easier to make impenetrable, and weapons power doesnt help much as they're real source of domination is science powers anyway (and torpedoes).

i do feel before this gets considered however, we need to give science something good. i heard they were planning to give science a second deflector, but really, how's that gonna help? so they can have both omega and maco deflectors at once, but would that really help anything? after playing with science powers that are buffed by specific deflectors, i dont think so.
instead they need a unique skill system. some type of passive heal to allies hull could make sense, but unlikely, and would only serve to make some of the really OP science builds that much more impossible to kill. giving them a special sensor system that makes targets more likely to loose subsystems when being shot could work, as that's the general idea of subsystem targeting for science anyway. allow the science to relay the location of the target's weapons to allied ships so all damage done to said ship has a 2% chance to disable the weapons, shields, etc.

however, this feels a bit too obvious a maneuver to do. science has always been the most complicated class, not because it's not usable in the game, but because all of it's properties requires a unique understanding of science specific systems. if you designed a system where by having a science present, you could modify the possibilities of an entire fleet. cruiser commands are designed to redirect the offensive direction of a group, either by making it tankier, faster, or allow more power. this is because a cruiser's place is at the front, tanking. a science's place is at the back, not because it's weak, but because it's supportive. if science had the option to buff a whole fleet and make all attacks AoE regardless of skills used, this would give them a definite roll, without actually making any of the current science builds any more overpowered. a science has the least amount of weapon slots, so they personally would benefit less from this buff, but all ships nearby would.
another possible skill would be to reverse the process. if instead of making all outborn energy expand to hit multiple targets, the science made all inborn energy scatter, this would also make them highly usable, without actually buffing any current builds. imagine the tank is taking alot of damage, but you have 4 other ships at full health. the science can refract incoming damage so less of it actually hits the cruiser, but in turn makes it so the rest of the ships share the burden. both of these skills would have a great place in the game and make sense since they are supposed to support their allies and not do things alone (at least this is how i see it.)
Timelords Fleet Command CO

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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,108
# 25
12-30-2013, 06:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by talonxv View Post
Personally I like the cannon effiency.

I think that escorts should just be the flat out KINGS of DPS. They fire cannons, stuff melts. That and dual HEAVY cannons should ONLY be allowed on escorts and they should be the hardest hitting weapon in the game.

Well something along those lines.
Then you're going to have a field day with the KDF Battlecruisers, who even in Star Trek canon from TOS even into DS9 / Dominion War, were heavily favoring forward firepower. They generally fired cannons / pulses, not beams. From the D7 of TOS to the Vor'Cha, they were using large cannons.

Edit to add:

Escorts / Destroyers don't need any new mechanics in general. They already have:
- Supreme firepower potential
- Excellent handling
- Higher speeds, more defense bonus
- Shield Mods that are practically Cruiser level strength... on top of the higher speeds and defense bonus no less.

Not only can Escorts deal the hurt out, but their shields can take punishment, AND they have better ability to avoid damage altogether. The devs have given the Glass Cannons better defenses. This game for a long time and only until recently, has been called "Escorts Online."

Escorts do not need anymore mechanics to make them "on par" with everything else, because Escorts had kept that bar up so high that Cruisers and Science Vessels had nothing to keep up. Only recently Cruisers, or more specifically, TAC Cruisers, have caught up. Science Vessels are still a joke.

Regarding Raptors, their damage output *is* still respectable. They have the TAC setups for it, though a 5 TAC Console layout would help. The way Raptors are however... their handling, their hull / shield, the Qin's awkward turns, etc. They need some sort of update because they were left behind long, long ago. Even the Guramba Destroyer has been left behind, but at least you still see them here and there, and not at all in PVP anymore. I'm not sure what it needs to be, but the Raptors need a look at.

Last edited by warmaker001b; 12-30-2013 at 06:57 PM.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 984
# 26
12-30-2013, 08:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by warmaker001b View Post
Then you're going to have a field day with the KDF Battlecruisers, who even in Star Trek canon from TOS even into DS9 / Dominion War, were heavily favoring forward firepower. They generally fired cannons / pulses, not beams. From the D7 of TOS to the Vor'Cha, they were using large cannons.
They fired both beams and pulses. The Vor'cha in particular has been seen to fire both, but almost always from the same spot (the forward disruptor port we see firing in 'Redemption part 1'). The Negh'Var also fires both beams and pulses - in 'All Good Things' it was pulses, in 'Way of the Warrior' they seem to be torpedoes firing from the underslung weapon pods (which as everyone knows is curiously absent from the in-game Negh'Var), and in 'Shattered Mirror' and 'Endgame' they fire beams.
Ensign
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 5
# 27
12-30-2013, 08:39 PM
@warmaker001b

you're confusing ease with power. yes, tactical and specifically escorts have dominated a majority of the content in this game for a long time. i am not a tactical, but do favor escorts (personally i'm an engineer, which means i have to work alot harder to keep up with tacticals in my escort.) as an engineer, i'm much tankier, and since i'm a fleet multivector, i can have one lt. commander science. for this reason i like to think i'm split perfectly between all 3 classes.

tactical did have the upper hand for the longest time, for ONE reason: it was easy to set up to be the best. with rare quality gear off the exchange of only MK11, you could easily hold your own in an escort no matter which of the original 3 STFs you did.

cruisers had to invest in the bigger gear and have a bit of time on their hands, but they could do the same after a while.

science is so miss understood, and i have a feeling you dont understand it either. science is carefully balancing limited resources with the mentality 'quality>quantity'. you dont play a science for an easy win. science takes a long, challenging art of work, but with the right gear, the hours math, and alot of patience, science can/does whoop tactical and engineering so hard, they're left burning on the wayside.
i was once in a squad of 2 bugships, 2 defiants, and myself with a Multivector. we met a science temporal ship that knew what it was doing, and by itself it murdered all 5 tacticals without EVER loosing a shield section. by maxing plasma, and shields, they made a ship tankier then 2-3 oddys with good builds.

i'm not saying Escorts need a buff, i'm just warning you not to say science is a joke. while they are rare, if you ever meet a good science, it'll kick your rear end, as well as all your teammates without ever taking you seriously.
Timelords Fleet Command CO

http://timelordsfleet.possessed.us/forum/index.php
Commander
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 292
# 28
01-05-2014, 04:33 PM
You're right. Escorts and Raptors should get something. A nerf to EptE back to the way it was. They also should not be allowed to use Aux2bat at all! Every dang Warbird out there is running Aux2bat and it's stupid.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,392
# 29
01-05-2014, 08:35 PM
Raptors are not Escorts.

They're...well, similar to Escorts, but incredibly badly designed for the role.

They're more like a tac-heavy Light Cruiser class than an Escort.

poor handling,slow, soft shielded and unnecessarily heavy, there's a reason that while Escorts dominate in Federation play, Raptors are bypassed for either Battlecruisers or Bird of Prey.

For something designed by "Warrior" races, they're just not very good as purpose built warships.

simply put, they're like strapping a bunch of guns on a DC-3 and calling it an night-fighter because it has two engines and a bunch of guns.

The "Killer app" for the Raptor class really doesn't exist-it's outperformed in PvE by the Battlecruisers (in spite of a lack of Commander tac seating), and in PvP by the Bird of Prey (in spite of the BoP's lack of tactical consoles!)-and this state of affairs has gone on for a very long time, and shows no indications of changing.

But a Raptor is NOT an Escort-Escorts are defined in the role by three things:

1. They're fast and handle well.
2. They're heavily armed.
3. The Federation and the lockboxes have them, the KDF does not. The KDF is saddled instead with the Raptor class.

Raptors are defined differently:

1. Standard, integrated cloak.
2. high count of tac consoles
3. Forward weapon focus
4. Poor handling-a turn rate it can't use, which is lower than a fed escort of the same tier, and a crap inertia for it's size coupled with a visible pivot-point issue.
5. Weak shields
6. High Hull and large crews, making self-repair a slow process and speeding destruction in combat.

In short, Raptors as a class are defined by their poor design choices, lack of capability, and existence as an "also ran", "Might have been-but never was" or mediocrity.

also by the Federation Player base's desire to acquire tht integrated cloak-but not at the expense of Raptor-like stats.
"when you're out of Birds of Prey, you're out of ships."
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,108
# 30
01-07-2014, 06:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pirko105 View Post
@warmaker001b
science is so miss understood, and i have a feeling you dont understand it either. science is carefully balancing limited resources with the mentality 'quality>quantity'. you dont play a science for an easy win. science takes a long, challenging art of work, but with the right gear, the hours math, and alot of patience, science can/does whoop tactical and engineering so hard, they're left burning on the wayside.
i was once in a squad of 2 bugships, 2 defiants, and myself with a Multivector. we met a science temporal ship that knew what it was doing, and by itself it murdered all 5 tacticals without EVER loosing a shield section. by maxing plasma, and shields, they made a ship tankier then 2-3 oddys with good builds.
Just an FYI, the Temporal Science Ship is a pretty OP ship. It has BOP like BOFF flexibility, can set up for any degree of science to go with whatever build, has a very high shield mod, and handles exactly like an Escort.

Don't be a bit too eager to say Science is GTG because someone is flying an OP ship and knew exactly what they were doing. Other science ships not named "Vesta" cannot compete on that kind of level.
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