Ensign
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 29
# 51
01-27-2014, 04:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
Or we could just make NPCs more player like in terms of their capabilities, where the difficulty comes from the level of skill exhibited by the AI behind the NPCs which would vary from one difficulty setting to the next, bamm, NPC get more weapons, thus more damage, they get abilities and the AI gets the upgrades to use them effectively.

That would make difficulty is STO.

I disagree.

Higher difficulty does not equal better content.

Making enemies tougher by boosting their damage output or their hitpoints does not make the missions more interesting. On the contrary: Maximizing firepower would be even more important.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,300
# 52
01-27-2014, 06:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skollulfr View Post
you can agree to disagree all you like.
simple fact of the matter is that if a tank cant deal with the focussed fire of the entire enemy team its not doing its job.
the thig there is, that if it does do its job it will either be immortal or ignored in favor of killable targets.

if npc's hit soft enough that one ship can casually absorb the incoming damage, you and your team is better off with a higher dps ship, and if the npc's are hitting hard anough to challenge that you have broken the game for anyone else because they just get skudded by some cheap ass one hit kill.
The point of tank is not just to soak damage. It also has to pull aggro. If it can't do that then it is a fail as a tank. And if you say everyone should be able to take the same damage. Try putting a modern hydrofoil versus a battleship. Battleship soaks way more than the dinky hydrofoil. There are weapons that can one or two hit said hydrofoil. So they shouldn't be used? Or perhaps they should be used with intelligence? IE fit their role better.

The current mechanic is a bit broken if an escort can soak as much damage as a cruiser. While out running it and out gunning it. Trinity can be a force of balance. My agreement with you is that it is not here.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,470
# 53
01-27-2014, 07:38 AM
I don't even think a lot of people here have any understanding (including the devs) of why STFs have turned incredibly easy.

Yes, the trinity system in STO is non-sense, it has no place here. Especially considering you have captain roles and ship roles that can be combined in any shape.

In the good old days of STFs we had a challenge, STFs were newer, ships were weaker, there was more mystery.

Over time they have released far more hybrid ships, which do a much better job of attacking while being defensive or having access to combinations that simply weren't possible.

Equipment wise we have lot of reputations, passive powers, lock box consoles/gear, fleet gear for a pretty hefty power creep. Any ship out there can use some combination of gear to reinforce their weak points while increasing their effectiveness. Its power creep to an extreme level.

There has been virtually no new real end game content, except from the Hive, in a long time. Since all mission in STO are very static, everyone has learned every spawn location, every trigger and got their timing down. It becomes trivial, boring and repetitive.

If anyone has actually taken the time to parse an STF properly, instead of looking at their amazing DPS and patting themselves on the back, they would have realized the older STFs all had one thing in common. Enemy plasma torpedos were doing stupid amounts of damage, like 90% of the total, at some point Cryptic fixed the instakill torpedos, but never shored up the remaining damage, so as STFs sit now, they are walk in the park hilariously easy.


So yes, the end game content is ridiculous, but its Cryptic's way, they don't actually maintain their own systems. I guess their moto is let it rot out, then overhaul it all and PR it as a new feature, just like the disaster they are going to create with the new event system.

Game content needs to be modified to keep up to some levels of power creep across the board. Though regular difficulty still needs to be fairly easy.

Missions need to be redesigned to be dynamic, and not the static predictable messes they are now, a single play through of any new repeatable mission and you know where everything will be every time.

That is pretty much all that they need, the reality was until the great plasma torpedo fix, ships in STFs needed some level of defense to avoid 1 shot kills, but thats out the window now and its all DPS. That one change allowed a build design that ignored healing and defense and sacrificed everything for damage without any real concern. Its a huge problem that devs don't even really get I'm sure.

Truthfully, the level 1-50 content needs a serious boost in difficulty, the largest problem to this is that there does not exist any in game information about combat, builds, or well anything. New players have no clue about anything, and have no ability to get that information except to ask another player, who will likely be wrong. The worst thing is that when you get a new ship, they are outfitted with garbage gear loadouts (not referring to quality), which makes players you are supposed have 4 torpedos on a cruiser or other non-sense.
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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,592
# 54
01-27-2014, 10:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hyymbeere View Post
Making enemies tougher by boosting their damage output or their hitpoints does not make the missions more interesting. On the contrary: Maximizing firepower would be even more important.
If you were to read my post properly you would realise I'm not simply suggesting a buff to NPC damage and hitpoints, that would be more of the same and that isn't difficulty, giving NPCs abilities and the skills to use them would be difficulty, imagine you bring a ship with 30k dps, your dps is your defence because you can't pack defensive measures and deal that kind of dps, the enemy drops your shield, you pop rsp, you get subnuked and then torp-ed, you die.

Content that makes you think about what you are doing, that's interesting.
Tacofangs is (genuinely) the best dev ever and the forumites adore him
Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 410
# 55
01-27-2014, 10:54 AM
Since the current elite stfs aren't really "elite", why don't we rename the current elites to advanced, and make some true elite stfs?

Put them at level 50 for entry, obviously, and put the enemie's level at at least level 54, for some difficulty.

It gets interesting from here.

Give borg starships and ground units shield's the [adapt] mod that we have on our elite fleet shields. (We all know how Borg like adapting)

Give Borg a new weapon type: "Borg Plasma". Basically the plasma weapons they have now, but also having a tetryon proc (since borg just love draining shields).

Continue the "each higher difficulty=bigger ships". (for space):
-Tac cubes guarding transformers in infected, with nanite cubes coming to repair the transformers.
-Assimilated Bortas dreadnoughts spawning out of the shipyards in the Cure
-Tac cubes at the transformers in khitomer, of course.
-And then Hive Onslaught... not sure about it. Maybe cubes helping the tac cubes instead of spheres helping the tac cubes?

If that's not enough, throw in tractor probes and regeneration probes as some additional borg frigate types instead of just probes.

Those are my ideas, until I think of more.

Edit: Almost forgot to mention: put the rewards at around double that of the current elites. If players cry "NERF IT!!!", don't nerf it one bit, just increase the rewards instead. (That last sentence was semi-sarcasm, btw)

You think you're safe while you're at warp captain?

Last edited by admiralnat; 01-27-2014 at 11:10 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,173
# 56
01-27-2014, 01:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skollulfr View Post
hello trinity fanboy.
see, you are wrong, while almost any ship in this game can do damage, there is very much a negative effect from the trinity still afflicting this game. though this point isnt put under pressure so much in pve as it is in pvp, where the "tank" class has been utterly excluded as the useless pile of **** it is.
The only negative effect is that with some few exceptions, most of the payout in Fleet Actions and STFs take DPS into account on some level. That sucks and needs to change.
Career Officer
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 33
# 57
01-28-2014, 08:06 AM
nicha0,

Many MMO's work on a end game repetitive, predictable, know the spawn timers format.

whether or not you like or dont like it is subjective, everyone thinks differently.

What's important here is the other information you've raised.

I agree with your points mostly, but I will go on to say, content *period* should be challenging.

But how do we implement that in game?

If you segregate the community into easy,normal,elite... you reduce the turnover of players entering the queue, doing a mission and then entering another queue after. Effectively, you slow down everyone's ability to get more done in a day.


If someone wants elite mode, to be something for veteran players (meaning very experienced at the game, having good ship builds and skill trees and traits and BOFFS, etc etc)

That's one thing. One thing that is hard to judge and changes has time goes on.

What is an effective build in STO? What is an ineffective build? Can we agree that there is such a thing as "bad builds", and if so that a person with a bad build could jeopardize the team's ability to finish the mission.


This is the real problem, trinity or otherwise.

The fact that a player can make a build that will not be combat viable in elite.
It doesn't matter if they learn the mission, timers, objectives etc... if they can't preform, they can't contribute the necessary amount.


But in saying that, how do we fix it??

Power creep will happen. We will get stronger across the board.

The only thing i can think of is smarter AI for combat, more variety in AI's (example: two borg cubes one does one set of tactics, the other another set) and a scaling system that takes a look at the players in the instance, and then adjusts the AI accordingly, and lets hope the players make good use of the BOFF's rotations and ship weapon arcs.
Ensign
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 29
# 58
01-28-2014, 10:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sevenat View Post
But how do we implement that in game?
Its as easy as I already mentioned:

Make player "deaths" count. If your ship gets destroyed, its destroyed. You are out. Better luck next time.

Optional:
Randomize enemy encounters and behaviour. They dont even need better AI or more weapons or more hitpoints, just mix things up a little.

Problem solved.
Career Officer
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 33
# 59
01-28-2014, 12:54 PM
You are referring to something akin to diablo's "Hardcore mode" (kinda!)

Right now the way the game works... these are things i'd be worried about:



- someone dies near me, kills me too

- the lance bug on Uni-matrix 1 (or what ever that mission is called)

- I fail to kill a torpedo from a borg cube, and instantly die from it. This is because i use a cannon build combined with "tab" to target nearest enemy. I think what happens is i click by mistake somewhere on screen without knowing it, and un-target the torpedo. This is user error, and I fully own that.

- the other occasional deaths I suffer I cannot fully explain, nor can I review the combat log because it goes by with everything for myself and everyone else. Crazy amount of data.
- Sometimes the game puts "abandon ship" on my toolbar, i hit it by mistake because of its location on the bar, and die.



Basically, you want to sorta-have perma-death. Hey okay i get that. But what would happen is, you will go into a PVE queue, take 25% casualties right off the bat, then fail to complete the mission. This is because of player skill, poor builds, lag and other factors...

Basically, you cant fix one without the others.

You will be more frustrated then you are now, I believe.
Specialist
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,525
# 60
01-28-2014, 02:00 PM
You can't have a death MEAN anything in this game because the devs don't know what the heck they're doing in terms of gameplay balance. You should never be KILLED. You should always have an out. Be it escape, be it smarts, be it skill, you should NEVER die. If you die, the game has failed or you're absolutely a total newbie. The fact that this game repeatedly kills you with NO option to prevent it (1-hit kills with NO defense) in so many aspects of both ground and space fighting means they need to revamp the entire gameplay balance from the ground up.

That won't happen. PERIOD.

They won't even go back and fix bugs or tweak content because the folks that originally did it aren't with the company anymore. They used to not even do patch notes because (their words, not mine) they couldn't know what was in any given patch THEY were releasing.


No... Sadly you cannot have a well balanced game where death actually means something. Instead we get this kluge of a flowchart model. Heck, I heard they don't even code in-house anymore.
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