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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
For those of you who don't know me, I'm one of the closed beta testers who primarily plays pvp in star trek online. I don't really identify with either faction, however since my chosen 'character' is (and was before lifetime bonus was announced) a liberated borg mercenary. I play with a very mercenary attitude, in that I fight for the fight on whichever team I am fighting for.

Some of you are new to these forums, and the old beta forums may be closed off to you so you don't know that I have always argued against people who I feel speak from a lack of sufficient understanding or whose attitudes are inhibiting their self improvement.

Lately it has been mostly against new UFP players who feel that there are imbalances that I feel are mostly a result of their own lack of understanding, but prior to that as many beta kdf players will assure you I was harshly criticizing the kdf pvpers for blaming the game rather than their own failures. A position I think has been proven right by the kdf players following the simple advice to learn to play.

I play both sides of PVP. I advocate both, and am willing to assist in improving the quality of play for both factions of players with advice and sharing anything that I or anyone else learns in terms of improving team tactics and strategies.

I am going to attempt here to take on the role of devil's advocate and argue on behalf of the UFP player with regards to the balance issues in t1 pvp. I feel that while there may be UFP players who are new and feel strongly that there is an issue, they lack the clarity and perception to make a compelling argument.

That being said, I want to point out some issues that appear to be questionable about the tier 1 balance situation.

--

It is a widely understood fact that the federation escort is no match for a surprise attack from cloak, and hence is generally the target of attacks so much so that UFP players are discouraged from flying them in pvp. It lacks the survivability of bridge officer slots, the health of a cruiser and with all of those minuses, is still grossly outmaneuvered by the ships that it will face. In short, it is the worst of all worlds.

With that understanding, let's look at the miranda compared to the tier 1 bird of prey.

The miranda has 12000 hull, and 3 bridge officer slots, one of each type, and is moderately maneuverable and comes with lower dps wide firing beams.

The bird of prey has 8000 hull, 3 universal bridge officer slots, and is very maneuverable, and has cloaking, and comes equipped with level ~11 tier 1 gear which is very well suited for pvp.

What is remarkable about this comparison, is that the miranda has even less of an advantage over the tier 1 bird of prey than the t2 escort has over the t2 bird of prey, and it's widely understood that the t2 escort cannot compete - even by the opponents who target them in pvp almost exclusively.

To make the t1 bop be on the same playing field to the t1 miranda the same way that the t2 bop is to the average, survivable t2 ufp ship one or more of the following changes would have to be made :

miranda hull points should improve
bird of prey should have 2, not 3 universal slots
bird of prey should start with mixed mk1/2 gear,and no consoles, which is average for ufp gear for this level
bird of prey should start with a slightly lower dps wider arc forward cannon

Mind you - I am not saying that there is an 'unfair' disparity now. I am only pointing out that the difference in potency between ships in t1 is clearly much smaller than it is in any other tier.

Thank you for reading. I look forward to your well considered responses.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
02-02-2010, 12:26 PM
I dont even see the point of your post.

MK2 isnt lvl 11, infact a lvl 1 character can use MK2 gear. You can buy MK2 gear as federation before lvl 6 when you start pvp'ing

Feds get multiple pve quest reward shields with 20% energy weapon resists and said shields are higher hp than any pvp quest gear klingons can get.

You might want to get your facts straight.

The Miranda is not an escort either, its a LIGHT CRUISER
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
02-02-2010, 12:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digglez
I dont even see the point of your post.

MK2 isnt lvl 11, infact a lvl 1 character can use MK2 gear. You can buy MK2 gear as federation before lvl 6 when you start pvp'ing

Feds get multiple pve quest reward shields with 20% energy weapon resists and said shields are higher hp than any pvp quest gear klingons can get.

You might want to get your facts straight.

The Miranda is not an escort either, its a LIGHT CRUISER
Reading comprehension, just DO it!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
02-02-2010, 12:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digglez
I dont even see the point of your post.

MK2 isnt lvl 11, infact a lvl 1 character can use MK2 gear. You can buy MK2 gear as federation before lvl 6 when you start pvp'ing

Feds get multiple pve quest reward shields with 20% energy weapon resists and said shields are higher hp than any pvp quest gear klingons can get.

You might want to get your facts straight.

The Miranda is not an escort either, its a LIGHT CRUISER
He's right. You gotta do your research m8.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
02-02-2010, 12:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meat_Machine
What is remarkable about this comparison, is that the miranda has even less of an advantage over the tier 1 bird of prey than the t2 escort has over the t2 bird of prey, and it's widely understood that the t2 escort cannot compete - even by the opponents who target them in pvp almost exclusively.
I think you've reached the wrong conclusion here.

We target the T2 escort because they're the biggest threat and we stand a better chance of killing them than a science vessel or a cruiser. Klingons who start fights by targeting a cruiser soon learn the error of their ways as they get blown up by the high DPS Escorts on their tail while the cruiser defends itself, accepts heals and buffs from allies and fends off the whole attack.

Your solution to the "problem" also doesn't make sense to me.

Miranda has 12000 hull, BOP has 8000. You think the Miranda should have more? Why?? That's already a 50% bonus to hull! T1 BOP doesn't even have battle cloak so there's really no advantage going for it.

Also, giving the BOP 1 less bridge officer would mean the Miranda has the advantage in powers, for no reason. The T2 BOP does, in fact, get 1 less bridge officer than any other ship but presumably that the price for the battle cloak ability.



The only thing I will agree with you on is the starter gear.

My suggestion to Cryptic is to put our T1 characters and ships back down to newbie starter gear but then have the first Klingon quest (the one that gives us bridge officers) also grant us 500 Medals of Achievement. That's not enough for a full outfit (a new shield alone is over 300 medals) but it's enough for a few pieces of our choice, or a complete ground combat loadout and one or two ship weapons to get us started.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
02-02-2010, 12:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephirius View Post
He's right. You gotta do your research m8.
Hardly. He's wrong on every point, but I am not going to bother to correct him. I expect people to spend at least a quarter of the time reading that I do writing.

If you respond stupidly, I will ridicule you. Just fair warning.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
02-02-2010, 12:58 PM
Quote:
bird of prey should start with mixed mk1/2 gear,and no consoles, which is average for ufp gear for this level
For sake of argument let me tell you the equipment I have on my Fed Tact character as a level 8.

Front:
Green MkII Phasor Array [Accuracy]
White MkII Photon Torpedo

Rear:
White MkII Phasor Array

Blue MkII Resilient Shield Array [+20% resistance to Phasors] [+20% resistance to Disruptors]
Green MkII Deflector Array [+10 Deflectors]
Green MkII Combat Engine [+2 Turn Rate]

Green MkII Engineering Shield Console (can't remember the shield power bonus)
Nothing in science console slot
Green MkII Tactical Phasor damage Console


Now, the gear I had as a Klingon at level 11 before switching to Tier2 ship:
All the starter gear.

So, as a Fed, by level 8 I had better gear than a Klingon can ever get in every slot except for 3. All this Fed equipment was from random drops, and winning starbase 24 twice, which is ridiculously easy.

Quote:
miranda hull points should improve
What? Fed ships already have 50% more hull than Klingons, and they need more? Ridiculous change.

Quote:
bird of prey should have 2, not 3 universal slots
Starting in T2 and on, BOPs have less slots than a comparable fed escort. The absolute minimum any ship should have is 3, so that you can have 1 of each family of Boff. Reducing this to 2 would be too harsh of a limit on starting Klingons.

Quote:
bird of prey should start with a slightly lower dps wider arc forward cannon
That would be fine if Klingons were given a way to quickly switch to a higher dps smaller arc weapon if they want to. Kind of like how Feds have a ton of exploration badges and energy by the time they get to level 6 that they could spend on weapon changes if they chose to do so.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
02-02-2010, 01:08 PM
Clarifications -

Miranda is listed as a 'light cruiser' and has the maneuver of a LC but has no more of a hull point bonus over the bird of prey than the escort in tier 2.

The bird of prey has 3 -universal- stations, compared to 3 limited stations on the miranda, compared to t2 and above where the bird of prey sacrifices a station in exchange for universal stations.

The gear on the kdf ship is about as good as any kdf ship would have at level 11 without sending gear from a federation character through mail.

Again, I am not saying that the disparity is unfair. I am saying that the feds simply based on the numbers here, have less of a power difference in t1 than they do in t2, and I suggest how that might be rectified.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
02-02-2010, 01:15 PM
From my experience in Tier1, I think the light cruiser really just needs a better turn radius.

Quote:
Kind of like how Feds have a ton of exploration badges and energy by the time they get to level 6 that they could spend on weapon changes if they chose to do so.
Federation players might have 75-150 Exploration Badges by level 6, but they certainly won't have much in the way of Energy Credits. PvP is far and away the best way to earn Energy Credits in this game. It's the sole reason I had one of every T3 ship in Beta, and plenty more Credits lying around unused.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
02-02-2010, 01:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheem View Post
From my experience in Tier1, I think the light cruiser really just needs a better turn radius.


Federation players might have 75-150 Exploration Badges by level 6, but they certainly won't have much in the way of Energy Credits. PvP is far and away the best way to earn Energy Credits in this game. It's the sole reason I had one of every T3 ship in Beta, and plenty more Credits lying around unused.
As a fed you arent outfitting your entire ship like you have to upgrade a klingon one. You're pve should account for 50-75% of your gear. The extra credits you have fill in the gaps, its not hard at all.

At lvl 5 I had 10k credits. The MK2 gear only cost around 1k each, so it was pretty easy get maxed out. Not to mention I can sell the old stuff when I get a better item from drop/quest
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