Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 101
02-03-2010, 04:43 PM
With all the talk of aircraft carriers and the such, I guess I could point out that there is no gravity in space so thus there is no weight. So turning something as big as a Galaxy Class is pretty simple. If we were going for full on realism than those ships could turn with barely any effort. This is not realistic though, so according to sci-fi physics the bigger the ship the more sluggish it is, and a Galaxy class is REALLY BIG.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 102
02-03-2010, 04:47 PM
My solution to this problem is relatively simple ... *IF* a buff on the turn radius for Galaxy+ cruisers is not in the cards.

Adjust the math on the Buffs such that they have a minimum floor on base turn rate.

Something that people have been lamenting repeatedly in this thread is that turn rate buffs (from whatever source) work on percentages ... and a percentage of a small number will always be a small buff (ie. NOT ENOUGH!). The solution then is to "bias" the math for the buffs, such that the base turn rate value plugged into these percentage computations goes but only so low ... and no lower. This would mean that the turn rate buffs have a minimum additive value for ships with low turn rates.

For the sake of argument/illustration ... what if the "minimum value" for computing turn rate buffs was set to 10? That would mean that for the purposes of computing the additive value of the buff the math would compute using a turn rate value of either what the ship actually has, by class ... or 10 ... whichever is HIGHER.

This would "allow" the base turn rate of the Galaxy Class to remain at 5 (ie. beached whale) ... but the buffs to that turn rate from any source would compute the amount of turn added by the buff as if the ship had a turn rate of 10. This would (ironically) be somewhat consistent with the game lore stating (repeatedly) that cruisers have large warp cores for lots of extra power ... meaning that as far as maneuverability goes, there is a LOT to be said for skills and equip choices (ie. buffs) with Cruisers, in a way which is NOT seen with other ship classes.

Essentially, cruisers would still be "penalized" for being cruisers, in that their base turn rates are still below the minimum threshold ... but that they would not be doubly penalized by the "tyranny of math" when it comes time to actually *DO* something about that handicap (because twice nothing is still nothing).

This proposal actually means that cruisers would get a Buff To Turning Buffs ... as opposed to an outright buff to base turning rate.

Six of one ... half a dozen of the other.

The difference is though that by leaving the base rate alone, but modifying the buffs this way, you make Player Choices (and opportunities to self-gimp) the means to "solve the problem" that exists in cruisers that don't turn ... rather than making the ships themselves "idiot proof" by default.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 103
02-03-2010, 04:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainVentin
With all the talk of aircraft carriers and the such, I guess I could point out that there is no gravity in space so thus there is no weight. So turning something as big as a Galaxy Class is pretty simple. If we were going for full on realism than those ships could turn with barely any effort. This is not realistic though, so according to sci-fi physics the bigger the ship the more sluggish it is, and a Galaxy class is REALLY BIG.
While there is no weight per se, there is still mass, and the inertia that mass has. You still have a lot of mass to move, and this is basic Newton's Laws of Motion we're talking about.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 104
02-03-2010, 04:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainVentin
With all the talk of aircraft carriers and the such, I guess I could point out that there is no gravity in space so thus there is no weight. So turning something as big as a Galaxy Class is pretty simple. If we were going for full on realism than those ships could turn with barely any effort. This is not realistic though, so according to sci-fi physics the bigger the ship the more sluggish it is, and a Galaxy class is REALLY BIG.
Time for some "science" lessons. Welcome to Star Trek Science 101

As we all know, Einstein's theory of relativity states that the closer an object gets to the speed of light, the more mass it has and the more inertia it must overcome in order to accellerate further, thus making the energy required to accellerate go to infinity as velocity reaches c.

Zephram Cochrane solved this with a simple and elegant solution...what if there was no inertia? That is what your Inertial Dampeners do, they reduce your Inertia. This is why, when you're at full impulse and moving > 25% the speed of light, your crew isn't pasted on the inside walls of your ship...the ship has no inertia.

Amusingly enough, this completely invalidates every agument about physics and inertia with regard to how fast a cruiser can turn. The Inertial dampeners don't "reduce" Inertia varying amounts, because even .000000000001 inertia still goes to infinity right before the speed of light and everyone on the ship dies and it's crushed into a paper thin wafer of metal and meat.

How fast can a galaxy class cruiser turn? As fast as it needs to. A person in a space suit can PUSH a galaxy class ship in it's turn. In the movies and episodes, the big ships can spin on a dime, because they have the power to the lateral thrusters and no inertia. Not "some" inertia. Not "more inertia than an escort". ZERO inertia. Any inertia at all = dead crew.

The T4/5 ships in STO turn slowly because Cryptic wants them to. There is no argument beyond that, except perhaps it's that way because Cryptic hates cruisers and loves escorts.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 105
02-03-2010, 04:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonBuck
While there is no weight per se, there is still mass, and the inertia that mass has. You still have a lot of mass to move, and this is basic Newton's Laws of Motion we're talking about.
No, there isn't, see above. Newton's laws are just as valid as Einsteins, which as you can see, are not
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 106
02-03-2010, 04:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by macallen View Post
Time for some "science" lessons. Welcome to Star Trek Science 101

<snip>

Zephram Cochrane solved this with a simple and elegant solution...what if there was no inertia? That is what your Inertial Dampeners do, they reduce your Inertia. This is why, when you're at full impulse and moving > 25% the speed of light, your crew isn't pasted on the inside walls of your ship...the ship has no inertia.

Amusingly enough, this completely invalidates every agument about physics and inertia with regard to how fast a cruiser can turn. The Inertial dampeners don't "reduce" Inertia varying amounts, because even .000000000001 inertia still goes to infinity right before the speed of light and everyone on the ship dies and it's crushed into a paper thin wafer of metal and meat.
A ship's Inertial Dampeners are what prevents the crew from becoming chunky salsa. The warp field apparently reduces the ship's inertial mass, enclosing it its own bubble in "subspace". The ship itself doesn't pass the speed of light in our universe. It's the bubble of space itself that does it. I remember something in one of the Trek books (Federation, I think) where they had Cochrane say: "I don't go faster than light! I cheat!"

But enough geekery. The topic at hand here is gameplay mechanics, and if Cryptic will give T4 and up an improved turn rate.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 107
02-03-2010, 05:56 PM
I flew a cruiser all through beta.

Since release I have not touched one. Not a single point spent in cruisers.

Makes me wanna cry.

The reason i won't fly one? Turn rate.

I don't want to turn as fast as an escort. Are some forum posters are really stupid enough to think that cruiser captains don't understand the neccessity of balance?

As many have said before, there is a difference between balance and torture. Why would you make 1 of only 3 classes of ships so painfull to play, when you know that a huge portion of the game audience has their sights set on this class? It will eventually be changed. Until then, I fly a crappy little escort. And hate it. But I gets all teh blues!



Quote:
Originally Posted by thorbrand View Post
They are suppose to if you don't use your skills to increase it or items. Your own fault.
Does ignorance pay you to advertise?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 108
02-03-2010, 06:12 PM
Just got my T4 cruiser today and it makes me want to smash in my A and D keys as hard as possible in some odd thinking that it will make me turn faster hehe.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 109
02-03-2010, 06:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurrican View Post
Just got my T4 cruiser today and it makes me want to smash in my A and D keys as hard as possible in some odd thinking that it will make me turn faster hehe.
This is why I'm asking now. This should've been addressed in the beta. 1,000's of people are going to start hitting this beast and finding how frustrating it is as the "bubble" moves into this rank.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 110
02-03-2010, 06:28 PM
MacAllen I am sure you have tested it but does having pts in the cruiser captain skills help at all?
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