Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1 "Cryptic" Math
02-02-2010, 08:39 PM
Link to Specific News Post. READ before replying!

I've been doing some reverse-engineering of the bonuses accrued to ship weapons via the skill system to create an excel sheet to compare weapons but I've run into a bit of a snag. With a rather significant amount of data, I've determined that the numbers given by the latest Cryptic news post (that a "17" bonus from a skill corresponds to a 17% increase, additively stacking with other skills) to be inaccurate as far as I can tell.

For my example, i am using two different types of weapons; a Dual Heavy Plasma Cannon Mk IV and a Phaser Beam Array Mk I. I have 9 ranks in Starship Energy Weapons and 9 ranks in Starship Cannon Weapons. I have 0 ranks in Starship Beam Weapons.
Starship Energy Weapons gives a "+18" which SHOULD translate to an 18% increase in damage.
Starship Cannon Weapons gives a "+30" which SHOULD translate to a 30% increase in damage.
Therefore, my damage increase SHOULD be 1.48 times the listed damage at 50 weapon power (Weapons do x1 damage at 50 weapon power, x2 damage at 100 weapon power, etc) for the plasma cannon and 1.18 times the listed damage for my phaser.

HOWEVER, after calculating the numbers, my DPS is only increased by approximately 1.354 times for my cannon and 1.164 times for the phaser. Where is my missing DPS? My ship was naked except for the weapons and I had no buffs during testing.

Finding this exceptionally odd, I created a new character (on klingon so I could skip the tutorial) and levelled up the Starship Energy Weapons skill while recording the change in DPS on several energy settings.

I found that on average, each "point" given by the skill gave approximately a 0.815% dps increase. Perplexed, i attempted to use this number to modify my skill number for my primary character, but even those did not bring the value to within 5% of the original.

I then compared my "found" DPS numbers to what the numbers SHOULD be and they were way off:

Power
DPS........49........76.......100........115
185........245......381......499........574

What they SHOULD be:

Power
DPS.......49.........76.......100........115
185.......268.......416......548........630


How can we be expected to make informed decisions about our skills if there is no simple solution to finding the return on our investment?

Edit1: realised my number for the phaser beam were off due to a typographical error.
Edit2: Apparently the system works by adding smaller percentages as a percentage of the percentage increase, so only the "strongest" skill matters the most, essentially de-valuing all of the beginner-level skills.
This system is essentially flawed and contradictory to the way the skill tree should function & the statements by Al Rivera. For more details see p.2
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
02-02-2010, 08:45 PM
you are trying to calculate dps, not base+ damage
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
02-02-2010, 08:47 PM
It could probably be explained with the simple idea of "power bleed". When you combine factors together, there is likely a small amount of power loss you will run into vs. the ideally perfect amount.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
02-02-2010, 08:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superpower34 View Post
It could probably be explained with the simple idea of "power bleed". When you combine factors together, there is likely a small amount of power loss you will run into vs. the ideally perfect amount.
I don't want "simple ideas," i want the math that makes this game work. if there is a "power bleed" it is a number or function that cryptic programmed in, and thus they should'nt lie about how their skills function
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
02-02-2010, 08:53 PM
Well I have not looked at it as deeply as you, but I know that anytime you deal with percentages, you can run into the formula's for probablity. If you are combining 18% and 30% instead of 48 percent, you could get a 5.4% drop. Putting you at around 42-43 percent. Think conditional probability
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
02-02-2010, 08:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlkDrgn
you are trying to calculate dps, not base+ damage
The way DPS works, both work out the same.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
02-02-2010, 08:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superpower34 View Post
Well I have not looked at it as deeply as you, but I know that anytime you deal with percentages, you can run into the formula's for probablity. If you are combining 18% and 30% instead of 48 percent, you could get a 5.4% drop. Putting you at around 42-43 percent. Think conditional probability
Did you read the news post? The poster stated that the percentages stacked additively.
I also ran a number crunch for multiplicative stacking and the numbers didn't match up there either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Rivera
That says there is a 17% damage bonus to all Energy Weapons, a 22% damage bonus to all Beam Weapons, a 28% bonus to all cannons weapons, and so on. Use a Phaser Cannon and the total damage bonus would then be 17 + 28 + 36 = 81%. Use a Disruptor Beam Array and the total damage bonus would be 17 + 22 + 40 = 79%.
quoted for ref.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
02-02-2010, 08:56 PM
Where you fully raid buffed feed and flasked?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
02-02-2010, 08:56 PM
What effect does range and speed have on the outcome?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
02-02-2010, 08:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Furlough
Where you fully raid buffed feed and flasked?
Lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HayabusaFury
What effect does range and speed have on the outcome?
I obtained all of my numbers from the ship tooltips. Without knowing the basics, tackling advanced systems such as range and speed would be a bad idea.
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