Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 31
02-03-2010, 08:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by acizoo View Post
ok guy you are really an idiot ... have you ever seen a star trek movie with the size of ships they have actuqally doing barrel rolls or pitch and yaw maneuvers ??? didn't think so be realistic
it's not a question about size as much as it is about mass... in space the weight of something doesn't matter but the MASS does. Remember Newton's 1st law "An object in motion will stay in motion at unless acted upon by an internal force that is equal or greater" The greater the mass of the ship means the greater the power output would be to hurl it up and over like in a barrow role. The Defiant being a "tough little ship" did a loopy loop during a battle with the Dominion. The Enterprise NX-01 did a loopy loop (Archer asked Mayweather if he could do an L4 at these speeds) in the Expanse destroying the Kilingon Bird-of-Prey... (Both ships of lesser mass) So to answer your question, yes we have seen star trek with the size of ships doing barrel rolls... perhaps not the Galaxy Classes b/c they don't really need to but that doesn't mean they can't. My point? Be careful calling anyone an idiot when you don't know what your talking about...

end of rant
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 32
02-03-2010, 08:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chenchuan View Post
this has been brought up for months.... most every reviewer and palyer agrees... had they not whiped the forum you would have seen an enourmous thread that had stayed perpetually on the front page
Palyer? Whiped? Enourmous? I do not think those words are what you think they are...


Not every player agrees, sorry. I would rather have the limit so my friends who have difficulty with orientation are able to play and not get lost or sick.

also, space would be hell-a boring if all NPC ships had to do was point their nose at you and go. Same goes for players. the absence of helicopter style movement and spherical rotation fosters tactical game-play.

They did not wipe the forums. They archived CB and PB posts. you can find them still, and even post on the archived threads, if you choose. The OP did not search nor were they interested in searching for the older posts.


And to the OP: Space is "real 3D", at least mine is. Things come at me from all directions and I can fly at any level of the planetary disk plain within the boundaries of zones. that seems 3D to me.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 33
02-03-2010, 08:51 AM
Ships performing barrel rolls would be very un-StarTrek
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 34
02-03-2010, 09:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakoriz
You can angle up or down, just not directly up, or directly down. Only more like 60 degrees or so. There is also no 'strafe' in any direction in space so you have to be moving forward to go up or down at all.
Drat. No "Z minus 1000 kilometers"! Well, that's it then, I'm canceling my subscription! Oh wait, I haven't even activated it yet! Okay, I'm activating my sub, THEN canceling it! <GRIN!>


Quote:
Originally Posted by SofaKing
As far as space physics goes I cant imagine a ship of that size could ever pull a real barrel roll. This is all assumption but some type of fake gravity must exist on ship unless the ship itself is massive enough (highly unlikely) to create what the human body is used to. Whatever form it takes its hard to imagine that its strong enough to not be affected by a massive ship trying to pull a full 360 barrel roll in 10 seconds. Imagine the amount of angular momentum generated and the centrifugal force exerted on crew members with a max distance from the center of mass (outer decks).
The ST universe has artificial gravity. It must also have some kind of motion-damping capability to prevent the entire crew from becoming smears on the aft bulkheads when they go from rest to full impulse in a few seconds or less. Given how fast they flew through the Solar System in one of the movies, full impulse must be a substantial fraction of lightspeed.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 35
02-03-2010, 09:32 AM
First of all, this is a game. It is based on a purely fictional story. Reality has nothing to do with it.

More to the point, if someone did create a game that accurately modeled physics, nobody would play it for long.

The vast majority of what we have come to accept from the Sci-Fi genre is quite far from what the reality would if one were to take things like inertia, momentum, vectored thrust in a nearly frictionless 3D environment (which is why we get stuck thinking in terms of front/back/up/down/etc, which really makes no sense in 3D travel), etc into account.

So lets not base out arguments on 'realism', as we are already so far from realistic as it is, that such arguments hold no water.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 36
02-03-2010, 10:00 AM
i wish i had full range of x, y, and z in space. there have been a few times now that i would need to barrel roll or loop to get back to my target but i have to fly around then go "up"or "down" just to get to my target again. if people get confused in the mist of flying around then will need some kind of orientation to keep them sane. some kind of option to keep the flight as it is now with a up and down feel. but for those like me that want a more filling feel of space combat. we should have the option of a button click in the controls menu to allow full 360 flight in all directions.

I will not get into the realism of space flight or the physics be hide the flight in space. Educating myself in physics is a hobby of mine. One of my favourite things to read is Physics of Star Trek. Although "real" physics is not necessary for this game, but 360 flight control would be awesome as an option for those that want it. you wouldn't have to remap any systems also to have a "orientation" button while in 360 mode to get right side up for star bases and other times you want to be "up" and "down with everyone else
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 37
02-03-2010, 10:10 AM
The series uses 2D space (easily seen when 99% of the times that they find another ship, both ships has the same Z-angle). The game uses 2D space.

What's the problem?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 38
02-03-2010, 10:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonDepre View Post
The series uses 2D space (easily seen when 99% of the times that they find another ship, both ships has the same Z-angle). The game uses 2D space.

What's the problem?
having Z as angle is 3d not 2d. 2d is only X and Y. the game and the show use 3d
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
I would like to be able to angle straight up or down as well. Dealing with combat that is directly below and you cannot get your narrow arc high powered weapons to bear simply because you can't point your ship up or down?

In Champions we do have straight up or down movement - its much slower movement but at least its available when needed.

Issue: Suppose this mechanic is viewed as game breaking for STO's aircraft model.

Solution: Tie the direction change to high energy turn or special maneuver that is linked to a ability on cool down. Once we get our broadsides established most of the rest of the fight is buffs/debuffs and slugging it out in regular naval combat.


Its either the above or just open it up and let the ships operate in 3D space.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 40
02-03-2010, 01:19 PM
The best explanation I can think of is that STO is not designed to simulate "space combat" it's designed to simulate "trek combat."

Objects in real space operate differently than they do in Star Trek. The shows and movies are designed to appeal to an audience that lives and dies under conditions that are incredibly different than those encountered in space. (that is to say the average person who experiences gravity, inertia, friction etc. on a daily basis) Since that audience by and large does not have a complete grasp on the intricacies of space, ship movement and combat is largely depicted in a manner that is more familiar.

Man has been using various waterways for transportation and trade for thousands of years versus the 50ish that we have been exploring space. Knowing that, its easy to see how the average audience member would find it easier to process events when the starships on the big screen move more like ships in the ocean. only on rare occasion do we see a hip pull off aerobatics like loops and barrel rolls and those instances are mostly for dramatic effect. That's also why we don't see ships moving in one direction while facing another (even though such a maneuver would be easy to do), only forward and backward with banking turns.

Appealing to the audience is also why starships are typically depicted upright. The few instance where we do see a ship inverted is, again, for dramatic effect. It would be pretty jarring to the senses if every time an enemy ship appeared on the view screen it was upside down or on its side. Seeing it upright allows the audience to quickly process what they are seeing and focus on what's going to happen next. If you don't believe this then show someone a photo upside down or sideways, then show another person the same photo upright and see which person can recognize it faster and remember more details about it.

Finally we get to why larger ships in Trek are slower and less maneuverable. Yes there are some physics involved but I'm not going to get into that. It all boils down to the fact that people learn pretty early on that the larger an object is, the slower it is. We don't see elephants turning in a circle as fast as a dog chasing its tail and we don't see 18 wheelers going 200 miles per hour or stopping on a dime. So when we watch Star Trek we expect that the Galaxy class ship will easily be outmaneuvered by the Bird of Prey.

Basically that's why I'm fine with not being able to climb vertically and that's why I think that the current movement system is a pretty decent representation of what Star Trek is.
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