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Rihannsu
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 576
# 11
02-06-2014, 08:19 AM
bfaw is autohit ability as it turns your weapons to something different this is because of their coding, you might thing othervice but its coding so shut up , iso charge is autohit, you cant dodge it, you cant dodge dots as you stated, you cannot dodge gravitywell, you cannot dodge ewp, you cannot dodge tyken's rift, you cannot dodge mines, you cannot dodge aceton assimilator, you cannot dodge want me to list more? you cannot dodge torpedo spread, you cannot dodge plasma burns from torpedo or weapon proc, you cannot dodge directed energy modulation as it shares the hit on your hit, you cannot dodge omega graviton amplifier, you cannot dodge tractorbeams, you cannot dodge photonic shockwave, you cannot dodge cpb radiation proc, you cannot dodge aceton beam, you cannot dodge magneotmetric overload, you cannot dodge heavy graviton beam, you cannot dodge nanitewhateverthing it is, you cannot dodge proton from tholian web, you cannot dodge tholian wall proton damage, you cannot dodge tetryon cascalade as far as i can tell, you cannot dodge swag.
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Captain
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 688
# 12
02-06-2014, 09:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by saxfire View Post
bfaw is autohit ability as it turns your weapons to something different this is because of their coding, you might thing othervice but its coding so shut up , iso charge is autohit, you cant dodge it, you cant dodge dots as you stated, you cannot dodge gravitywell, you cannot dodge ewp, you cannot dodge tyken's rift, you cannot dodge mines, you cannot dodge aceton assimilator, you cannot dodge want me to list more? you cannot dodge torpedo spread, you cannot dodge plasma burns from torpedo or weapon proc, you cannot dodge directed energy modulation as it shares the hit on your hit, you cannot dodge omega graviton amplifier, you cannot dodge tractorbeams, you cannot dodge photonic shockwave, you cannot dodge cpb radiation proc, you cannot dodge aceton beam, you cannot dodge magneotmetric overload, you cannot dodge heavy graviton beam, you cannot dodge nanitewhateverthing it is, you cannot dodge proton from tholian web, you cannot dodge tholian wall proton damage, you cannot dodge tetryon cascalade as far as i can tell, you cannot dodge swag.
DEM, by your logic, also misses when the firing weapon misses.
Fire-At-Will misses targets, frequently.
Torpedo Spread and mines can both be outrun.
At least some of the other powers you mentioned (deflector type and whatnot) can be "dodged" with other powers that negate their effects, but does that influence the "autohit" mechanic being referred to on the previous page?
And humorously "deflector" powers have a built in auto-miss in those cases that can activated on targets outside of the firing arc (isometric charge qualifies for this unless it has been fixed - as per comments directed to me by in-game associates).

As for your claim about not being able to dodge "swag", doesn't your post prove the opposite in a few cases?

Last edited by projectfrontier; 02-06-2014 at 09:44 AM.
Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 418
# 13
02-06-2014, 09:55 AM
If it's auto hit then why does faw miss? Isometric charge can and does miss. Just checked my logs and i do show misses. Perhaps because of what projectfrontier posted. I've no idea why i show misses otherwise. Unless it really can miss regardless of arc. I believe you got the others correct.

And yes i understand the coding for fire at will is different then autofiring. It's way different in fact. But if acc-def works for determining hit chance and it does. Then you'd think acc overflow would work as well and it doesn't. Why would one part work but not the other. That's my main question.

Last edited by dragonsbite; 02-06-2014 at 11:03 AM.
Cryptic Studios Team
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 487
# 14
02-06-2014, 04:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonsbite View Post
Autofiring and fire at will do not ignore accuracy and do not have an auto hit stage.
Fire at will does have an autohit stage. When you activate Fire At Will, here's what happens to produce the desired end effect:

1.) You gain a "Mode" on your character that lasts for <duration>. While that mode is on your character, all Beam Array and Dual Beam Bank powers are redirected from their standard mode of fire into "Fire At Will" mode.

2.) You activate a Beam Array or DBB. It uses its Fire At Will power. This power emanates a cone in the direction of the weapon's firing arc, automatically hitting 2 targets within that cone. Any targets hit by this cone send a message back to your ship, telling it to shoot them.

3.) Your ship receives the message from all enemies struck in part 2. It then fires single shots at each and every one of them. This stage of the power rolls ToHit rolls based on your accuracy and your target's defense.

Stage 2 has to be autohit for the art to work. Stage 2 has to not be flagged as a "Directed Energy" power for power drain to not count doubly for this ability. Stage 3 has to be flagged as a "Directed Energy" power for procs to work and for power drain to work at all. The power has to be structured in this complex way for it to work the way it does - firing on random ships within the arc, updating which target it hits with each volley.
Jeff "Adjudicator Hawk" Hamilton
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
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Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,760
# 15
02-06-2014, 05:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adjudicatorhawk View Post
Fire at will does have an autohit stage. When you activate Fire At Will, here's what happens to produce the desired end effect:

1.) You gain a "Mode" on your character that lasts for <duration>. While that mode is on your character, all Beam Array and Dual Beam Bank powers are redirected from their standard mode of fire into "Fire At Will" mode.

2.) You activate a Beam Array or DBB. It uses its Fire At Will power. This power emanates a cone in the direction of the weapon's firing arc, automatically hitting 2 targets within that cone. Any targets hit by this cone send a message back to your ship, telling it to shoot them.

3.) Your ship receives the message from all enemies struck in part 2. It then fires single shots at each and every one of them. This stage of the power rolls ToHit rolls based on your accuracy and your target's defense.

Stage 2 has to be autohit for the art to work. Stage 2 has to not be flagged as a "Directed Energy" power for power drain to not count doubly for this ability. Stage 3 has to be flagged as a "Directed Energy" power for procs to work and for power drain to work at all. The power has to be structured in this complex way for it to work the way it does - firing on random ships within the arc, updating which target it hits with each volley.
cool, like to see stuff explained like this. i see now why there was issues with power drain and DEM and other per shot procs going off, very interesting. now that i see how it works, it would be easier to give feedback that could be actually be applied to it.

as far as i can tell, CSV needs a large number of targets in front of it to diliver its maximum number of hits. if theres just 2 targets to hit, it doesn't hit those 2 targets more just because theres only the 2. each target in the CSV cone gets hit a set number of times per time period, if theres a lot of targets to hit that doesn't diminish how many hits each target takes.

FAW on the other hand just needs 2 targets for it to diliver its maximum number of shots, and that ends up being 10 shots per cycle from each beam weapon. this causes FAW to scale completely out of control when multiple persons use it, no mater how many targets are around every possible shot gets fired at something. and CSV needs a large number of targets in a small cone to do much of any enhanced damage.


a way needs to be found that prevents FAW from scaleing out of control like this, and the same sort of cone around your intended target may be the answer. its not like CSV with turrets or single cannons has 360 or 180 degree cones, thats what ends up happening with FAW though, thers always something to hit with in the arc of all your beam weapons.

another issue is the whole 10 shot per cycle thing. FAW adds a 5th shot per cycle, and you can see each of the 5 shots splits off at the sourse to fire at 2 different targets, casing a total of 10 shots per cycle. not even CRF produces a volume of shots like this, and thats why beams are DPSing all over canon builds. that 5th shot added to the cycle, perhaps its the only one that should have that split shot hiting 2 targets, that would leave it a 6 shot per cycle skill


i think a lot of people just want an enhanced DPS beam skill to a single target like cannons have for CRF, all they have to do that is FAW. BO, no mater how overcaped you are, takes 50 power starting from 125. it takes all your overcaped power, +50. it is a detrement to pure DPS for this reason, its only useful for situational spike. its an escorts skill, with a DBB, not a skill for a beam array cruiser.

if there was a true single target beam rapid fire, and a less overpowering 45-70 degree cone aoe FAW skill, i think the game would be much better off. FAW is making pvp so bad right now that any revamp too it would be a wasted effort. not only is it a pvp problem, its arguably a worse problem for PVE. in STFs, its a bigger exploit to thier completion then tric mines ever were. all scored pve content is totally ruled by it, it simply creates the highest numbers, and the vastness between a FAW scimitar's DPS and your average weekend warrior's casual ship is so vast, i dont see how satisfying content can be created for anybody.

even if FAW now is WAI, or close enough, its power needs to be reevaluated.
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Commander
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 418
# 16
02-06-2014, 07:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adjudicatorhawk View Post
Fire at will does have an autohit stage. When you activate Fire At Will, here's what happens to produce the desired end effect:

1.) You gain a "Mode" on your character that lasts for <duration>. While that mode is on your character, all Beam Array and Dual Beam Bank powers are redirected from their standard mode of fire into "Fire At Will" mode.

2.) You activate a Beam Array or DBB. It uses its Fire At Will power. This power emanates a cone in the direction of the weapon's firing arc, automatically hitting 2 targets within that cone. Any targets hit by this cone send a message back to your ship, telling it to shoot them.

3.) Your ship receives the message from all enemies struck in part 2. It then fires single shots at each and every one of them. This stage of the power rolls ToHit rolls based on your accuracy and your target's defense.

Stage 2 has to be autohit for the art to work. Stage 2 has to not be flagged as a "Directed Energy" power for power drain to not count doubly for this ability. Stage 3 has to be flagged as a "Directed Energy" power for procs to work and for power drain to work at all. The power has to be structured in this complex way for it to work the way it does - firing on random ships within the arc, updating which target it hits with each volley.
Thank you for that well defined response Jeff.

Ok i think i understand those 3 stages. Stage 2 being the autohit stage. Used mainly for flagging the targets for artwork. So x,y,z position from your ship to the target's x,y,z position,etc, etc. At least that's the way i think of it. Stage 3 being a non autohit stage (although the targets are already flagged as the targets to be hit). This stage uses acc-def to determine to hit chance. So for example if targets def is -15 and your acc is +50 we now have a positive difference of 65 which should equate to 2-(1/(1+65)=139.39% chance to hit.

Ok i can understand all that. But you already got the to hit chance from stage 3. Wouldn't this then carry over to a stage 4 which should then determine damage? And if so wouldn't acc overflow then work as you already have the to hit chance from stage 3. And in this example crit hit would increase by (139.39%-1)*.125=4.92% and crit severity increase by (139.39%-1)*.5=19.70%. This is the part that seems to be failing. This is the only part where i scratch my head.

Last edited by dragonsbite; 02-06-2014 at 07:56 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,177
# 17
02-07-2014, 01:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
i think a lot of people just want an enhanced DPS beam skill to a single target like cannons have for CRF, all they have to do that is FAW. BO, no mater how overcaped you are, takes 50 power starting from 125. it takes all your overcaped power, +50. it is a detrement to pure DPS for this reason, its only useful for situational spike. its an escorts skill, with a DBB, not a skill for a beam array cruiser.
Maybe, "Sustained Beam Attack," a continuously firing beam that lasts for X seconds instead of delivering everything as a single burst ala BO. As with BO, I figure this might pick only one of your beams/DBBs. Does more damage than your standard beam attack, maybe equal to a BO but just spread over time. Attack cancels if weapon goes out of arc or weapons become disabled. Drains more power than a standard attack but because it isn't burst damage it drains less than a BO since the system draw isn't as much so the power level can be maintained better.
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Captain
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 3,158
# 18
02-07-2014, 06:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mightybobcnc View Post
Maybe, "Sustained Beam Attack," a continuously firing beam that lasts for X seconds instead of delivering everything as a single burst ala BO. As with BO, I figure this might pick only one of your beams/DBBs.
There's that problem again: An attack that uses only ONE WEAPON is completely useless on a ship that uses that weapon as a primary weapon, because you have 6-8 of those weapons...none of which benefit. It is for this same reason that BO is not used on beam cruisers much: Because it fires only one beam, leaving your remaining beams sitting there doing nothing. This attack would end up being another single-DBB Escort Skill. Just as CSV and CRF use ALL cannon weapons, an alternative to FAW must similarly use ALL beam weapons. Firing ONE beam is only good when your ship only HAS one beam.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
that 5th shot added to the cycle, perhaps its the only one that should have that split shot hiting 2 targets, that would leave it a 6 shot per cycle skill
Counter-argument: Maybe that 5th-shot shouldn't be there. Split-beaming should be enough, you'd think...

But on the other hand, CSV splits into *3* shots, AND it has superior uptime. The catch being that CSV is constrained by the narrow arc of cannons.

On the other hand...is there really a problem? Beams are egalitarian. Nothing prevents escorts from using beams. In fact, our leading beam offender is basically an escort in nature.

Last edited by doffingcomrade; 02-07-2014 at 06:56 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 274
# 19
02-07-2014, 03:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by doffingcomrade View Post
There's that problem again: An attack that uses only ONE WEAPON is completely useless on a ship that uses that weapon as a primary weapon, because you have 6-8 of those weapons...none of which benefit. It is for this same reason that BO is not used on beam cruisers much: Because it fires only one beam, leaving your remaining beams sitting there doing nothing. This attack would end up being another single-DBB Escort Skill. Just as CSV and CRF use ALL cannon weapons, an alternative to FAW must similarly use ALL beam weapons. Firing ONE beam is only good when your ship only HAS one beam.
Maybe a focused beam, that adds all beams you carry into one and pulses a certain amount of times. It probably shouldn't be as strong as 8*beam dps, but that can be easily adjusted and explained (as in: some power may be lost during the channeling process or is used to sustain the beam in the first place)
Another drawback could be, that any beam that could not hit the target would be shut down for the lenght of the powers cycle. That would make it even more valuable for an escort captain to not get broadsided by a cruiser.

Quote:
Originally Posted by doffingcomrade View Post
On the other hand...is there really a problem? Beams are egalitarian. Nothing prevents escorts from using beams. In fact, our leading beam offender is basically an escort in nature.
No, beams aren't the problem, but FAW is. One doesn't equal the other. It's not about nerfing beams it's about balancing abilities.

Last edited by freenos85; 02-07-2014 at 03:04 PM.
Commander
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 324
# 20
02-07-2014, 03:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adjudicatorhawk View Post
Yes, we're looking into it. Accuracy Overflow won't currently work for any power that "ignores accuracy" - powers that have any autohit stage.

Acc Overflow is a really arcane mechanic that doesn't message well at all. Fixing it will be a widespread change to the mechanic as a whole, not just a change to a flag on Fire at Will. It will take a little while, but it's in the pipeline to be adjusted to work.
Why bother with fixing it at all? Just remove the hwole mechanic, as 99% of the community only PVE's, and in PVE accuracy matters for nothing but some torpedos. even that is maginal.

For FaW, as long as FAW is as overpowered as it is, i dont see any priority in fixing Accuracy overflow on it. Same for Spread, it has advantage enough of being a 100% hitter.

Besides what are we really talking about guys, practically 2% CritH and 10% Sev extra in the best circumstance. lol BOnus defense also increased more then accuracy did overall, especially with all the boffs.
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